Climate Change Skeptics
by Danielle Fong
I don’t understand the reasoning of so many ‘climate change skeptics.’
Let’s imagine the climate in question is not Earth’s, for a moment, and is instead the climate of a black box, hovering in a vacuum, with a big lightbulb shining next to it. Practically all its energy comes from the lightbulb (the rest from the residual heat within, and some dim source of central power), and practically all of its cooling consists in radiating infrared back outward. On the surface of this box tiny microbes are busy manufacturing and installing a layer of glass, which infrared cannot penetrate, covering it. We now wait, and see what happens.
The infrared is significantly absorbed by the glass, largely radiated back to the box, and thus the largest channel for cooling — essentially the only one capable of sustained cooling in the long term — has been attenuated.
Now replace the black box by Earth, the lightbulb by the sun, and the glass by CO2.
One would imagine the black box to have very strange properties were it not to heat at all. It might, for some time, somehow redirect some of the heat into less observable sections of its mass (e.g. the lower levels of the Earth’s oceans, which have a much greater heat capacity than its atmosphere). Yet this cannot last forever: there is only so much ocean. It might also become more reflective, absorbing less light (e.g. the earth’s clouds, desertification)? Yet an opposite effect comes from the melting snows and ice caps and constructed asphalt we add in urban areas: all of which have radiance and albedos observable from the outside (e.g. our satellites). Finally, the black box radiation is proportional to the fourth power of the temperature, so even if the percentage of radiated power that reaches the outside of the glass is diminished, if the temperature of the primary radiative bodies becomes less even, such that ∫T(new)^4 dA >> ∫T(old)^4 dA, the temperature can stay roughly constant. Other than that, there’s close to nothing that can be done: that box will very probably rise in temperature, and almost certainly the climate will change.
Skeptics correctly points out that the lightbulb varies in power output. And the black box is moving a bit relative to the light — further away or closer by — shinier or cooler or more black parts facing the light at any given time. They also point out that the glass isn’t the only thing surrounding the black box — for example they have noticed also a shiny layer of dust on the glass (aerosols), and an even bigger layer of glass underneath the glass we’d place (water vapor). And they point out that the layer of black paint appears to be, in a great proportion, liquid, and with a high heat capacity, and churning cyclically, and that there’s a lot of it, so that in any one instance a cooler or a warmer parcel of that liquid is showing.
None of this changes a thing about the fact that if we put yet another layer of glass on the box, the smart money is on it heating, and certainly on it changing. How could it not? At this point the onus is on these climate change skeptics to suggest a means by which the box is supposed to stay exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. Maybe it is not so necessary that the Earth stays the same. Maybe there are credible arguments that explain that, really, the box won’t change that much, and for the teeming, glass manufacturing cultures of microbes living under the glass that these changes are not really such a big deal.
Some scientists, who I respect very much — Freeman Dyson for example, make this very argument. I respectfully disagree with him, as I think that there’s far too much risk in disrupting the biosphere, and that the disruption, famine, and loss of ecosystems and species that have already occurred are too great a price to pay, that oil wars, tyrannies, and people dying of respiratory illness from coal plants aren’t exactly positive either, and estimates of the probability of some catastrophic event happening, like say, Greenland melting, the consequences of which are too dire to imagine, range somewhere between 10% and 80%.
But that’s a philosophical disagreement. One might say that instead of engaging in ‘climate change’ skepticism, Dyson and others are engaging in ‘climate problem’ skepticism.
Too often, what we have with ‘skeptics’ is a scientific disagreement: the great majority say either that it is happening, but only as part of natural variation, and they had nothing to do with it, or that it isn’t happening at all. Which, at this point, seem more like the antics of a child screaming ‘I didn’t do it,’ or putting their hands to their ears, singing ‘la la la, I can’t hear you!’ than of a calm and reasoned scientist — or skeptic — examining the assumptions of a majority opinion. Their conclusions are already drawn.
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The glass-box-light-bulb analogy is neat, but only works if most of the sun’s energy is converted to infrared when it interacts with the earth, most things we see reflect stuff at other wavelengths (which the atmosphere is transparent to or we wouldn’t see them). The nonlinearity of the system is what is interesting, those feedback loops you dismiss are critical, and are the biggest source of uncertainty in any predictions (check out the IPCCs reports). “The onus is totally on these climate change skeptics to suggest a means by which the box is supposed to stay exactly the same,” it doesn’t make much sense for that onus to be on anyone. Things will change, and adapting to change, turning risk into opportunity, is what makes us (humans) successful.
I think many technically minded folks in engineering and hard science are used to validating the predictions of their models with designed experiments. Going from observational studies and un-validated model predictions (we can’t do designed experiments on the earth) to hysterics about eliminating hydrocarbon based energy sources to “save life as we know it” seems very unscientific to them.
I’m sure you’d expect the engineers of your start-up to validate their scooter-performance-models by testing components and prototypes before using them to justify spending bunches of money on materials, tooling and production facilities. At least the same level of healthy “skepticism” ought to be applied to climate change predictions. Feynman’s first principle comes to mind: “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.” His take on scientists taking extra care to not mislead the lay public with hyperbole is also germane
I like Dyson’s view of the situation, and his carbon eating tree idea is interesting. Solutions like that are far more inspiring than what normally gets bandied about (taxing carbon, how boring!). Maybe you could even make a profit from solar-powered carbon sequestering trees, that would actually be sustainable, and wouldn’t require world government or heavy taxation of productive economic activity (or any pseudo-religious hysterics about saving the planet; I know, I know, how boring!).
Nice essay; good luck with your start-up!
Hi jstults,
Thank you for your comments. I do mention, explicitly, that the black box might turn more reflective: to my mind this is the most plausible objection to the climate models, since those feedback effects are, as you point out, nonlinear and difficult to predict. But most skeptics don’t mention this, and point out climate’s cyclical nature, instead. Furthermore, an increased albedo means a dimmer world, and probably with more clouds. It is reasonable to disagree that this is necessarily a bad thing, but not to pretend that there are no consequences.
It is in fact true that most of the light of the sun is turned to infrared — the sun spectrum albedo of the earth is, on average, about 0.3. For short periods the albedo can vary considerably between about 0.05 and 0.6, but it does stay most of the time below 0.5. [1][2]
The other issue is that the overall, full spectrum albedo of Earth have been measured, by the satellite CERES, as declining, recently, though they suggest it is due to variation in aerosols, which are more sensitive to market forces, technology, and weather than most other pieces.[2][3]
I believe strongly in skepticism. I believe in the validation of models, piecemeal and together. And I believe that one should bend over backwards to not fool oneself. I also believe that this is, earnestly, carefully, extensively, being done. And in this case, there are special circumstances.
First, the cyclical climate change that is so often bandied about by ‘skeptics’ is quite irrelevant to the overall, long term problem.
Second, that the other holes in the reasoning I gave above — primarily the Earth becoming more reflective are already being questioned and checked and measured by many projects and scientists.
Third, saying that the Earth will react to the changes by becoming more reflective has substantial implications for life on Earth. Saying that radiation will increase due to an increase in the four power average temperature implies increased temperatures *or* increased extreme weather events. When people say that the Earth will adjust itself to the greenhouse gases by a variety of natural phenomena, they are not climate change skeptics, they are climate *problem* skeptics. It’s dishonest to claim otherwise. It’s a rational conversation to disagree about the extent of that as a problem, but it’s not honest to claim that nothing’s happening and nothing will happen.
Fourth, we only have one Earth. *Any* physical prediction, no matter how careful the work, has, necessarily, some uncertainty. This case isn’t just a matter of academic curiosity – we cannot just hold our breath and see what happens. If a credible, careful, extensive effort to produce a range of predictions shows that some significant chance of a catastrophic event (be it Greenland melting, the permanent loss of coral reefs or rainforests, or climate change causing rapid evolution and spread of diseases and vectors,) we had better come up with some reasoning for why the chance isn’t significant or why the problems aren’t catastrophic. Or we should act.
[1] – http://www.spenvis.oma.be/spenvis/ecss/ecss06/ecss06.html#_TOC641
[2] – http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=5484
[3] – http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/308/5723/825
And thanks to you for your well thought reply and links about the earth’s albedo.
Your ‘special circumstances’:
1. … cyclic climate change irrelevant to long term …, Agreed, that’s just talking heads muddying the water.
2. … earth becoming more reflective …, true, but I think some of the other feedback mechanisms are more interesting and haven’t been modeled very accurately yet, for instance Dr Spencer’s work on precipitation systems:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/not_that_simple_gqs0XKDYmQhnILuB6aM9hK
(disclaimer: I used to be Roy’s neighbour)
3. … rational to disagree about the extent of the problem …, Agreed, I guess you could categorize me as a “problem” skeptic rather than an “effect” skeptic. Thanks, that’s a useful distinction.
4. Since you mentioned Dyson earlier, his review of a couple books is interesting: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21494
You said, “*Any* physical prediction, no matter how careful the work, has, necessarily, some uncertainty. This case isn’t just a matter of academic curiosity – we cannot just hold our breath and see what happens.” I agree with the first half of your statement. Given the uncertain predictions of the future, any policy response ought to balance the expected risks/rewards. You may disagree with the economic analysis that Nordhaus has done (see Dyson’s book review), but it is telling that the policy suggestions to combat global warming that get a lot of press (Stern’s and Gore’s suggestions) are an *order of magnitude worse*, economically speaking, than doing nothing, and doing nothing is only slightly worse than the optimal strategy of a gradually increasing carbon tax. So, I think the second half of your statement doesn’t follow, doing nothing might be close to the right choice. Nordhaus could certainly be wrong, but at least it’s an honest effort to make reasoned policy choices that take into account the cost of our actions and our uncertainty about the future.
I think the ‘special circumstance’ that you left out, that is most fundamentally important, is that we can’t validate climate models to the same level as other models. We can’t perform controlled experiments on the reality of interest. This means that, unlike most of our efforts in applied physics which are quite successful, we won’t have *quantitative* estimates of the uncertainty of our predictions. We won’t know which modeling choices were well founded and which were just a mistake of history (biased by the available observations, a sort of selection bias).
By the way, I see that you do take validation seriously, your post Keeping Prediction Honest is a good one too.
On HN, dmm writes
What’s wrong with a little skepticism? There is a whole lot of bs passed off as science regarding climate change. In particular the models which claim to predict the temperature centuries form now by modeling a chaotic system with boxes 100mi in width using parameters with +-10% error _each year_ is ridiculous.
Plus what do you want us to do? Spend trillions we don’t have to try and reduce our oil consumption by a fraction? Other countries will just burn anything we don’t.
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To which I reply
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Not if alternatives achieve unsubsidized competitiveness, which is precisely what some are trying to achieve.
The internet is a chaotic system if you choose packets as your unit of granularity, and yet this message still came over the wire intact. The wiring inside a bomb impacted by an outside force is a chaotic system with plenty of uncertainty as to what’s inside, but you would still be unwise to kick it. Gas flow in jet engines is a highly turbulent and chaotic system with measured temperature variation from the best models exceeding in many cases 20%, and yet jets will still fly.
You don’t need a perfect model to arrive at an accurate prediction, you don’t need a terribly accurate prediction in order to arrive at a general appraisal of a situation, and you don’t even need a general appraisal of a situation to ascertain risk worthy of action.
Frankly, it should be probably be enough to say “we know that most of the energy the Earth receives is from the sun, and we know that most of the energy is dissipates is through infrared. We also know that the Earth is an extremely complex, strongly coupled, and chaotic system, in which the details of every component can never be known, and being able to predict with a high level of confidence what the effects of any major change would be is unlikely. Maybe we should probably stop fucking with the Earth’s primary means of cooling?”
There is nothing wrong with skepticism, per se. Skepticism is a positive, and it is a very worthy thing to root out the bs from the science. But it must be weighed against two things: the need to come to some decisions in a limited timeframe, and the fact that people often managed to justify to themselves, using any means at their disposal, their continued action or inaction. Too often ‘climate change skeptics’ claim that due to unacceptable uncertainty, they’re going to continue doing what they’re doing — or — that it isn’t happening at all — or — that it’s just part of the natural variation, when simple physics tells us that if you significantly modify a primary means of forcing a system then at least something about it must change.
Danielle said: “Not if alternatives achieve unsubsidised competitiveness…”
I think if this were the case you’d see a lot of the rancour disappear, people aren’t reacting to climate change science because they hate science, they react to unvalidated models being used to fear monger just a bit and as a justification for massive expansion of government regulation/taxation.
Your bombs and jet engines examples are near and dear to my heart, and illustrate what I said earlier. We don’t (or at least it’s not best practice to) bend metal on those types of hardware development programs based on model predictions that haven’t been calibrated to the reality of interest (blades in cascades, components in rigs, engines in static test stands, flight hardware). That validation process doesn’t occur by observing engines in the wild, we design experiments so that we protect ourselves from being fooled by random/uncontrolled variation and correlation of the inputs (this is difficult to do with the earth). You won’t see Pratt & Whitney, GE or Rolls Royce making large capital expenditures based on colorful fluid dynamics unconstrained by experimental benchmarking (and I say this as an unabashed CFD nerd).
Having said that, I agree that the “we can’t predict every turbulent eddy, so models are useless” argument is silliness. We can get good wags on the time averages without getting every little eddy right (but this requires turbulence model calibration/validation).
It seems (at least to me) like the folks who are closest to the actual measurements of the climate (satellites, radiosondes, etc) tend to also be the ones who are quite sceptical of the tales of impending doom from the modellers. Am I mistaken?
Danielle also said: “… you don’t even need a general appraisal of a situation to ascertain risk worthy of action.”
I disagree, situational awareness is pretty key when you are in a “shoot, move or communicate” sort of predicament. Running open loop is generally not a recipe for success in a risky, complex environment. YMMV.
Danielle,
First, thanks for the provocative post; it has really gotten me much more into this interesting literature. The interface between computational physics, decision theory and public policy is an exciting one.
Second, Yale 360 has an interesting article on the economics of climate change policy you might be interested in. I wrote up a little response as well.
This points to the larger issue of ‘decisions under uncertainty’, The MIT group seems to be the one out front on applying those tools to this field. Good food for thought for anyone making decisions based on physical predictions (isn’t that most of us?).
Cheers.
Hi Joshua,
Thanks! It’s been an enjoyable conversation for me as well. I do want to write a more detailed follow up to your further points and questions — it will have to wait until I’m past some deadlines. But thank you very much for your links :-)
Cheers,
Danielle
The skepticism, as far as I can see, exposes something very telling about the attitude of the skeptics that is far more important than any of the reasons they give for their skepticism.
One of the biggest skeptics with a scientific background is Fred Singer. His skepticism took this progression:
* In the 90’s, he claimed that the globe was not warming at all.
* More recently, he claimed that it is warming, but it is not our fault and has nothing to do with CO2.
* Now, he has co-authored and published a book claiming that the world is experiencing “unstoppable global warming” due to a natural cycle that happens every few thousand years and that there is nothing we can do about it.
* His co-author is now touring about arguing that we are experiencing global cooling.
What this tolerance for gross inconsistency (not warming/warming but not our fault/ global cooling) suggests is that there is an abdication of human responsibility for climate change; the skeptics have embraced a number of contradictory stances towards climate change with no apparent concern for the contradictions as long as their stance does not admit the one thing unacceptable to them–holding humans responsible. Someone with this attitude cannot be convinced by reason and evidence because they’ve concluded (at an emotional level) that they will not be held responsible.
What I’m talking about here is dishonest skepticism. Honest skepticism is entitled to debate over reason and evidence, but dishonest skepticism can only be contained; once someone embraces it, nothing changes their mind.
Berkana said: “The skepticism, as far as I can see, exposes something very telling about the attitude of the skeptics that is far more important than any of the reasons they give for their skepticism.”
Your right about skepticism revealing a specific state of knowledge, but not about the coherence of that state. I tend to take a more Bayesian view of the reasons for disagreement, rather than attributing motivations to folks I disagree with, like “abdication of human responsibility”.
With the recently revealed chicanery by some prominent alarmists, are prior probabilities for deception all that unreasonable?
The bottom line is that the way we keep from fooling ourselves (and others) is by being as open and honest about the raw data, and the manipulations we perform on the data as we can. Being less than transparent only tends to enforce the prior probability for deception.
When several pundits who influence the masses embrace and even promote contradictory ideas (no warming at all/warming but not our fault/global cooling) just to oppose a single idea, it suggests their unspoken motive. If a skeptic consistently holds to one view, it might not be fair to infer a motive, but that kind of skeptic is not the kind I’m talking about.
For your information, the “chicanery” and allegations about deception are overblown. Of all the e-mails taken from the climate research center that got hacked, two sentences were cherry picked and interpreted out of context to show some sort of conspiracy. No amount of research conspiracy can bring back the glaciers that have melted, ice shelves have broken off, nor change the fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, nor change the fact that its concentration and the concentration of other potent GHGs are increasing in our atmosphere due to human activity. All the counter-examples cited of temperature falling only shows that the effect on global temperatures is not a monotonic function, not that the long term trend since industrialization hasn’t been an increase in temperature.
Here is one explanation given as a counterpoint to the mis-interpretation of those e-mails from someone familiar with the material.
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The email “trick of adding in the real temps to each series … to hide the decline” has nothing to do with “hiding evidence of global cooling.” The email is referring to the tree ring divergence problem, a well-known and actively studied phenomenon where dendrochronological proxy reconstructions diverge from instrumental data starting at around 1950. In other words, studying the relative width of tree rings from very old trees can give reconstructions of the climate during those years, except this stops working for trees in Northern-hemisphere forests after 1950. There are many hypotheses as to why this occurred, but there is no definite answer yet. A good overview of the problem can be found here:
Click to access DArrigo_etal.pdf
Direct instrumental data clearly shows a warming trend since 1950, as well as other proxy reconstructions, however because of the divergence problem, tree ring proxies from the Northern hemisphere do not correlate with any of these. Therefore, when creating the chart of proxy compilations, tree ring data was only included up until 1960. The chart is here:

The lightest-blue line is the tree-ring proxy. Notice that it correlates quite well with all the other proxies, although it stops at 1960. If the omitted data was included, it would have shown a clearly juxtaposed decline. This is what “hide the decline” referred to.
If you refer to the above pdf, on page 3 they have a chart that shows the full proxy, where the decline can be seen. It also shows how the proxy diverges with instrumental temperature records. No data is being hidden from the public, it is readily available (it took me all of 2 minutes to find it).
Lastly, the “trick” from the email was referring to plotting instrumental data along with the proxy data. This is a very common practice to show that instrumental data correlates with proxy data. In the chart above, instrumental data is the solid black line, which as can be seen, follows the exact same pattern as the most recent proxy data.
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See this as well:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/11/truth-hacked-climate-email-controversy.php
Berkana said: “For your information, the “chicanery” and allegations about deception are overblown.”
I downloaded the email zip file a while ago; there are lots of very unprofessional and unethical things these guys were colluding on. I don’t even care about the ‘hide the decline’ email; the ones about obfuscating data and methods, manipulating editorial personnel on journals, making sure that the ‘right’ folks are reviewing the in-crowd’s papers, and redefining the definition of what counts as peer review. Those are the things that bother me (aside from all of the assorted buffoonery those guys displayed that was unrelated to technical competence and professional integrity).
I’d encourage you to read them yourself. If you have a technical / research background at all you will be appalled.
I definitely agree with you, jstults, the behavior of some of these scientists is terrible. It doesn’t say much one way or the other as far as science goes, but it strikes a nail into the heart of the ‘scientific authorities have concluded’ attitude that many give. Good riddance, in my mind; I just hope that doesn’t lead to too many people concluding that we should do nothing about the environment.
I was pretty appalled when I read those emails. I was just as appalled when I saw the reaction.
The whole thing reeks. I am getting worried that things will degenerate into the same kind of partisan, or worse, tribal conflicts that make up domestic politics and international conflicts. The Palestine/Israel conflict comes to mind, and understanding is only worsening as attention is directed towards slights, attacks, and atrocities of the past.
It will take a lot of pioneering work to recover a reasonable scientific effort and debate.
Have you read any of the work of Steve McIntyre? He’s a geologist with a statistics background who likes to validate climate change models in his retirement. His diligent work has been convincing enough to earn some of his criticisms acceptance in the mainstream climate community.
But the mainstream climate science community treats him like an evil idiot. His efforts to get access to raw data underlying published models are regularly thwarted. If it weren’t for the Freedom of Information Act he wouldn’t be able to do any work at all. In fact, many of the ClimateGate emails refer to his efforts to get access to data and to have a conversation with authors over statistical irregularities in their papers. Here’s a quote from paleoclimatologist Phil Jones in response to one of his data requests:
“We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it?”
Shocking to see those words from a scientist.
Steve McIntyre’s main area of research has been on the “hockeystick” model – a claim by paleoclimatologists that the modern era is much hotter than any previous time in human history. This is an important plank in establishing the urgency of climate change. If the globe is getting warmer but it is still relatively cool, then maybe it isn’t the most urgent environmental problem and we should look at instead, say, the death of fisheries.
Here are some interesting irregularities discovered by Steve that I picked out as I browsed his blog:
1) Evidence of climate scientists producing a hockey stick by cherry picking a data set. (post)
2) Climate scientists producing a hockey stick by using a data series upside down. (post)
3) Scientists using models that will turn random “red noise” into a hockey stick shape. (paper)
4) Steve’s explanation of “hide the decline”
Steve’s tussles with the mainstream community have given momentum to a movement for scientists to share data and conduct their work in the open (see this editorial in Nature)
In my mind, Steve is a hero of science and his work is a model of how science will work in the future.
There’s no arguing with the instrumental temperature records that show increasing temperatures in the 20th century and the basic physics of the greenhouse model. And Steve is just one guy checking the work of thousands of scientists with $billions in funding. But his work is forcing an increase to the standard of professionalism in the climate community by showing us how far the current system is from the ideal. And it has made me skeptical of the more apocalyptic calls to action coming from the environmentalist community.
But I don’t have much of a background in climate science. I know that Steve looks like an earnest guy and not an evil idiot. His rallying cry to release data and model code and to do science in the open sounds like a good idea. But I don’t know enough of the science to validate his legitimacy. So I’m pointing this out to other smart people in hopes that they can help me form an opinion on it.
I think he does a halfway decent job in poking little holes in our various theories of systems of the world. There are many, of course. None of our models incorporate biological, ecological, or socioeconomic feedback effects — these are among the most important.
But I don’t think he gives and entirely intellectually honest account. The simple model of global warming still largely stands. We need to decide how to act. It’s insane to continue to run this one-time-only experiment with atmospheric chemistry in the hopes of increasing our knowledge by a little bit when we’re going to run out of the fuel we’re burning anyway.
Berkana,
Thanks for the links about tree rings. If you have the emails, check out file ‘1037241376.txt’. It’s from a tree lover (with a PhD in forest biology) and talks about his frustrations with dendrochronologists chasing correlations without a firm grasp of the underlying physical mechanisms. That’s always a danger in trying to find models with predictive power from any historical record (stock prices, tree rings, temperatures, etc.). You are always extrapolating (into the future) rather than interpolating (within a given range of observed behaviour), so having a solid physical mechanism (and corresponding model structure) is critical to successful predictions.
He also talks about barriers to communication between different specialists. I think this email fiasco, if nothing else, highlights the importance of knocking down those barriers.
BTW, the links about the ‘truth’ of the emails are based on RealClimate.org’s ‘analysis’, and those guys don’t exactly come across as bastions of academic integrity in the leaked emails either. The responses by Zorita and Curry are much more what I would expect from people interested in getting back to the science.
hi Danielle remember you meet me at the bart
Hi Danielle,
I read about LightSail Energy while cruising the eco-web posts on renewable energy storage, as I’ve started working in that area (http://thegazette.com/2010/10/06/meskwakis-exploring-wind-power-to-create-self-sufficient-settlement/). Couldn’t resist joining in this 2-year old discussion, perhaps you can clarify your logic here:
“You don’t need a perfect model to arrive at an accurate prediction…”
“Perfect” = propaganda word, not part of science.
Climate models using 30 km x 30 km cell size to try to predict maximum intensity of hurricanes fail miserably, but by re-programming for only smaller cell size (to 1 km x 1 km) they vastly increase their accuracy. (Persing, John, Michael T. Montgomery, 2003: Hurricane Superintensity. J. Atmos. Sci., 60, 2349 – 2371. doi: 10.1175/1520-0469(2003)0602.0.CO;2)
Since there never has been and never will be a perfect climate model, let’s get back to the issue: you do need an “accurate” model to arrive at an accurate prediction. Which models do you assess as being accurate?
Example: science doesn’t have a complete model for consciousness. We take a conscious person and put them in an airtight greenhouse. It heats up to, say, 60 C.
While we don’t have a complete model of the person, we can predict that consciousness will fade — perhaps fatally. The prediction can be accurate, despite a completely lacking or incorrect model of the system. We might model a conscious being as the work of homunculi that strike in intemperate weather.
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As such, I put forward the basic radiative balance model as a starting point, and show that with the addition of greenhouse gases there’s no way around making the world either hotter or grayer. It’s a pretty simple argument — and that’s the point — I think people are getting lost in the details. The first point to get across that we’re changing the planet — it is not infinite. The second is that we seem to be changing it dramatically.
I feel like any such discussion must address the fact that, globally, phytoplankton has declined by 40% in the past century. That’s 40% of the base of the food pyramid for all ocean life. That’s 20% of the plant life in the world, and accounts for 20% of the oxygen we breathe. Whatever is causing it, something significant is happening to the ecosystems of earth.
Click to access Boyce_etal_2010.pdf
First, thanks again to Danielle for this post, and interesting discussion which started me on a year long (and counting) search of climate science literature (mostly the fluid dynamics modeling which is already a professional interest).
Danielle Fong:
You may be interested in this. Pressing a simple model of a complex system too hard is a good way to convince yourself of nonsense. Spherical cows are pretty useful rhetorical tools though ; – )
Tom said:
Part of my lit review has been focused on climate model verification and validation. I tend to focus on the verification part in online discussions because that’s just math, and it’s less likely to devolve into heated polemics. What I found was pretty surprising to me: none of the climate models are yet capable of demonstrating grid converged solutions for even some globally averaged functionals. Initial work on doing that sort of demonstration by increasing resolution was “discouraging.” I think such a demonstration is just a matter of time and improved technique though.
Depending on what you’re looking for convergence in, convergence is easy or unreachable. We cannot resolve the turbulence of even the simplest phenomena, but we can model things like thermal equilibrium.
It would help if you would at least acknowledge the point — the radiative balance model is sufficient to at least show that there’s an effect, and suspect that it could be quite significant. The details of what changes occur, at high resolution, and an accurate predsixtion of magnitude, is the domain of future work, and remains to be discovered. But the threat of a large magnitude effect is established.
It would help? What?
Anyway, not much to disagree with because what you say is nearly a tautology: changing the material properties changes the response. Since what that response actually is remains obscure it can be stated even more simply: changing the equation changes the equation.
It’s funny, I am at the same time both more optimistic of our ability (continually improving) to model turbulence, and less convinced of the usefulness of the spherical cow climate model than you.
The primary difference between me and you is in our (un)willingness to leap from physics to moral imperative. Any shared understanding of climate processes we may have will never change that.
Oops, messed up a link: “discouraging.”
I hope there is nothing in my post that contradicts this: “It would help if you would at least acknowledge the point — the radiative balance model is sufficient to at least show that there’s an effect…”
I have always contended that there is some effect, and have been studying (somewhat) the available models to see if any can accurately predict the magnitude. Most admit that they cannot. The major flaws that I have detected in their formulas result from selecting sea surface temperature (SST) as a major driving force for climate/weather over the oceans. This is a very weak surrogate for the energy flux, which needs to include the complete heat profile all the way down to the ocean floor. A good model would have to include this, to be trustworthy as to the predicted rate of temperature change.
Thanks for keeping the blog going. Your post on the Halting problem brought back many fond memories. (Might even be relevant here.)
I stumbled upon your blog and admire your story, it resonates with me. we have similar tendencies.
my skepticism of climate change has to do with its underlying cause, not its existence.
NASA has reliable data (not commonly not reported in mainstream media) that all of the planets in our solar system are heating up at the same rate. makes you wonder why?
perhaps you might shed some light on this phenomenon. naturally, i have my thoughts.
I haven’t seen that data, but even if I had, it would not imply what you think it does, namely that the sun is just getting hotter. The planets are vast distances apart and have vastly different heat capacities and temperature dependent emissivities and albedos. They would react differently at different rates to a hotter sun.
Sometimes Wikipedia has some valuable information: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Colored dissolved organic matter (CDOM) is the optically measurable component of the dissolved organic matter in water. Also known as chromophoric dissolved organic matter, yellow substance, and gelbstoff, CDOM occurs naturally in aquatic environments primarily as a result of tannins released from decaying detritus. CDOM most strongly absorbs short wavelength light ranging from blue to ultraviolet, whereas pure water absorbs longer wavelength red light. Therefore, non-turbid water with little or no CDOM appears blue. The color of water will range through green, yellow-green, and brown as CDOM increases.
CDOM can have a significant effect on biological activity in aquatic systems. CDOM diminishes light as it penetrates water. This has a limiting effect on photosynthesis and can inhibit the growth of phytoplankton populations, which form the basis of oceanic food chains and are a primary source of atmospheric oxygen.
Although variations in CDOM are primarily the result of natural processes, human activities such as logging, agriculture, effluent discharge, and wetland drainage can affect CDOM levels in fresh water and estuarine systems. In general, CDOM concentrations are much higher in fresh waters and estuaries than in the open ocean, though concentrations are highly variable.